I've read a couple of these threads and I was wondering if you could post some links that have good info about the unhealthful aspects of fried and cooked foods etc.
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:27 PMRaw foods will always contain more nutrients than cooked foods. Certain foods however are indigestible in their raw state, or else are more digestible in a cooked state. In the case of these foods nutrient absorption is higher when cooked. Strict raw foodists would avoid these foods and eat only foods which dont not require cooking to be healthful. Raw foods contain more enzymes, something completely absent from many processed foods.
The effects of different cooking methods are not identical. The effects of deep frying foods in oils with low flash points is not the same as using hot water and is not the same as baking. The effects will likewise be different for different foods.
My subjective experience is that when you eat raw foods you will often experience increased energy and elevated consciousness. The sugars exist in a different state, the vitamins are more intact, the enzymes are present and richer than in lightly cooked foods, and you just feel more energetic.
Unfortunately there is a lot of bunk science and fabrications made my raw foods proponents. Claims that the vitamins and minerals in a veggie stir fry has become inorganic because it was briefly heated is not true but its something you might hear being parroted. However a raw diet really has a lot going for it, especially compared to diets that are primarily composed of dead and processed foods.
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:43 PM"Unfortunately there is a lot of bunk science and fabrications made my raw foods proponents. Claims that the vitamins and minerals in a veggie stir fry has become inorganic because it was briefly heated is not true but its something you might hear being parroted."
Nonsense, but I won't ask you to back it up, since this is where one has to draw upon bunk science. Destroy the living energies through excessive heat, and the vital amines and minerals revert to inorganic states. -
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:52 PM"estroy the living energies through excessive heat, and the vital amines and minerals revert to inorganic states. "
True, but 3 minutes or less of flash frying is not going to enough to accomplish this. At 3 minutes of flash frying you begin to see some destruction of vitamins, some alterations in sugars, a very slight coagulation in some proteins. The raw diet has enough merits that you dont have to exaggerate and make stuff up. A stir fry still contains organic vitamins and minerals. -
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:21 PM....what has not been cooked, perhaps..... hardly reason to advocate in favor of cooking, as it is only Partially cooked if Skillfully done.... then it is at best a transitional technique in which you are eating a mixture of cooked and almost cooked. Not raw is mostly what you've got in partially cooking. There's no making stuff up here or exaggeration in saying one is eating cooked food even if only partially so. Such a compromised approach is not in the actual spirit of raw foods, even if it is somewhat less harmful than fully cooking.
Just so there's no confusion, as practically everyone on the planet would be a "raw fooder" if this term meant eating "Some" raw food. The problem with eating Some cooked food is that one is continuing to Add toxins to the mix, which effectively Stops the detoxing. If the body can't detox,.... it may be temporarily more comfortable, but long-term healing is thwarted, and addictive syndromes will continue. That, is basic raw food science. The addiction syndrome with cooked foods is very much the same as with drugs, ....except more subtle and not recognized or understood by most people. -
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:32 PMI mostly agree with you. I also respect your dedication.
There is still a problem of terminology. What you call cooked, I might call burnt. A raw diet has tons of advantages and it makes you feel better. However, when you mislead people you lose credibility and people take you less seriously.
"Cobalt is a metal, hence a mineral by definition (1) above, but not necessarily by definition (2) above. Cobalt is an essential part of cobalamin, a compound better known as vitamin B-12. Herbert et al. [1984] reports that vitamin B-12 was heated to 200°C (392°F) for 6 days, with only 15% loss. That is, 85% of the vitamin B-12 survived the heating. This is a counterexample to the claim above, since if the claim were true, 100% of the B-12 should degrade due to loss of cobalt."
www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/ra...d-2h.shtml -
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Re: just wondering
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 11:46 PMI have a subjective belief (that I dont require that others subscribe to) that there is a spiritual component to foods, or at least an energetic one that is lost or changed when food dies, and that it cannot be explained by heating alone. I wont however use bunk science to back up my perspective, its just a belief I have. -
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 1:34 AMWhat about raw stuff like sushi? I know this is a vegan tribe, but I'd like to know if "raw" also can apply to meat or fish as well. And where does alcohol fit into this lifestyle, or does it at all? To be honest, the only vegans I've ever known were also punk rockers. They never ate any animal products whatsoever.....but they drank like fish. -
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 1:44 AMRaw fish will have a higher enzyme content. It is thought to be a reason for the longer than average Japanese lifespan...their men are probably third longest living and the females are the longest living people on earth. Most Japanese are not totally raw but they eat a much higher percentage of raw foods, including fish and fermented products that are loaded with enzymes, and they live longer on average than Americans.
I am vegan for ethical considerations though, not health reasons. -
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 7:13 AMRelying upon what conventional science has to offer, and calling anything else "bunk". is misplaced judgment in my experience of how skewed things can become by looking at what that reductionism has wrought us in the 'real world'. Perhaps the chemistry of cobalamine can hold up to longterm heat..... but this is just one in hundreds of factors.... and hardly a typical example of the effects of heat on food.
I realize that perhaps most of us here are in a situation where they are not able to go totally raw. Does this give us excuse to pick through the data and find isolated examples of what might be construable in an argumentative basis as reason to justify the current positions we occupy............. rather than looking at the Big Picture and Reaching for where we need to work towards? Is that our purpose? I can contrive excuses for going back to eating cooked, and back it up convincingly with science.......... yet I have to ignore a lot of Larger Truths to do so. By stating such larger truths, and upholding them, my intent is not to render "judgment" against others...... it is to continue to keep these truths in perspective as we wander towards them in this wilderness of misconceptions and a culture of addiction. Even I must struggle with my own habits to eat healthy, live raw rather than a lot of fatty, dehydrated raw that is marginal............
As David Wolfe tells us...... keep adding the best ever raw foods and the bad stuff (the desire for it) will fall away to make room for it. -
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 7:23 AM"Relying upon what conventional science has to offer, and calling anything else "bunk""
*For Leslie*
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:49 AMInterNesting video. Arbi-triDelic. My views are Integrative Andish. There is evolution, and there is periodic interjection of intelligent design from both higher spirited intelligences, and technological intelligences. Most of the polarizing debates I get suckjacked into never get beyond the Either This or That reactational "Nor Nogginism". We need more of that OutTelligence relevance to the groovidance. Building concepts out of eclecticism is what I do. Wordsmithing is what I woo as a sideline to psychedelicize me mediums. Synchopation nation is the equation for relation of the doda doda doda dodeca das.
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 7:24 AMThere is a contingent of raw meat & fish eaters, and they show up at raw & living foods tribe, which is why raw vegans is more on target as a name...... as eating raw meat-fish is only justifiable as a transitional adaptation for those whose metabolism is in a very dense mode. Likewise, small amounts of alcohol may be OK from time-to-time, yet sensibilities would indicate that it goes without saying alcohol is not helpful to health (at best it is a means of facilitating emotional release.... which can be achieved better other ways).
Use common sense. An occasional bite of raw fish might not be "unhealthy", yet I have found it to put quite a load of toxins into the body that are better done without. The fact that most of the world is surviving on a high toxin diet is not justification for doing the same.......... there's a tremendous difference between surviving and looking good for a few decades.... and falling into health decline............... and the potential of living at a high level of health (optimization) that does not diminish as the decades progress.......... -
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 10:13 AMTypical cooking does not render minerals inorganic. There are other chemicals that are destroyed by heat, but it generally requires incineration rather than simple cooking to render most minerals inorganic. Organic minerals are not THAT sensitive to heat. If you reduce your food to a pile of ash, that would be a complete conversion.
Im sorry to nitpick, but Im a chemist. Its deceptive to tell people that cooked foods lack organic minerals. Its just not true. Saying otherwise is not just bunk, but an outright lie. You have to ignore truth to claim otherwise.
There are other chemicals though that are destroyed by cooking, and a lack of these chemicals can in fact impact your health. There are a lot of good reasons to attempt going 100% raw, but we dont need to spread misrepresentations of the truth to convince people to do it.
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Re: just wondering
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 1:35 PMWhen you are totally raw, and you've also given up meat and fish, where does most of your protein come from? -
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:36 AMProtein is never a problem, as long as one is getting sufficient calories (not effectively anorexic or starving) .... as even plain, ordinary fruits and vegetables have ample protein (6-12% of calories) similar to mother's milk (also 6-12% of calories). The 'perceived' need for Excessive amounts of protein is due to a lifetime of conditioning. We are fed at least from 3-6 times (or more) the amount of protein we actually need from an early age. This causes fast growth, but cuts lifespan down considerably. All that excess protein has to be eliminated, and minerals to buffer the acidic protein's excretion through the kidneys (as blood PH has to be kept at a level that is alkaline) is the real cause of osteoporosis. The metabolism of everyone who hasn't detoxed is Geared towards this elimination, so if you stop eating all that excess, you fell somewhat starved.... as proteins will continue to be eliminated until your metabolism cycles readjust. There are other complex factors involved as well.
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 9:24 AMIt would depend upon your definition of organic. In organic chemistry, chemicals that are called organic are those involved in carbon bondings, if my memory serves me correctly. In my definition, and the definition of those involved with raw life sciences........ the term organic denotes more specificity to: living (life essence and integrities intact) and raw (if not fully alive, then still possessing chemistries that readily translate into life without need for breaking down and reassembly to eliminate toxic or non-functional chemistries.... such as what is generated as a result of oxidation, heating, and processing in ways known to be destructive to those integrities).
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 12:55 PMhey DMX
i commend you for sticking with your original quest, in the face of more sparring between these peaceful vegans.
It can take some time to get used to living with less protein intake, but rest assured, we don't need nearly as much protein as the average human consumes. We don't even need as much as the USDA recommends--now THAT (IMO) is Bunk Science. it's also called Blind Tradition, maintaining guidelines that were set back when people thought they knew what the human body thrives on, and no one has ever challenged it. I hope that someone gets it together to start conducting legitimate, extensive studies on people who eat exclusively raw diets. If i were you, Sentience, that is something i would try my best to initiate. I don't know what it takes to get studies ordered, but perhaps you do. I have a long list of dietary studies i would order if i were in a position to do so.
As for information on what is wrong with cooked food, it's all over the internet. Just search "benefits of raw diet", pick up a book by Gabriel Cousens or David Wolfe, or any one of the raw food gurus. We were not intended to eat our food cooked. It didn't grow that way, especially grains which require extensive processing to make them palatable, and our bodies have had to adapt in order to figure out how to process foods so far from their natural state. These adaptations have eventually resulted in disease, which is seen as part of life by most physicians. it's not true that disease is a natural part of life, there has just never been any evidence shown to counteract that. We need tens of thousands of raw foodists to survive a massive epidemic or live to be 120 years old before anyone will believe that we're right.
this: >>the term organic denotes more specificity to: living (life essence and integrities intact) and raw (if not fully alive, then still possessing chemistries that readily translate into life without need for breaking down and reassembly to eliminate toxic or non-functional chemistries.<<
is a key statement. It points to the nature of the ongoing disagreement between Sentience and Leslie. Sentience is a conventional scientist, Leslie is more of an alchemist. It's like comparing Astronomy to Astrology. You're talking about the same stars in the same system, but with different qualities. Astronomy says that Astrology is bunk science, can't be proven, is mere legend or illusion. Astrology does not deny Astronomy its truth, however, recognizes the limitations of viewing an evolving, organic, dynamic system through the lens of a fixed and sterile point of view.
My point is that Astronomy and Astrology used to be one science, before the Powers that Be (the Church at that time) stepped in and declared Astrology a heretical occult science that must be stopped and its proponents silenced. This is the same hand of Big Brother that wants to mandate that our greens and nuts all be irradiated, that wants to regulate herbal supplements and lie about what goes into producing dairy products. The alliance of Big Brother and modern science is unfortunate, because the diagnostic techniques and exploratory methods could be put to good use in actually making people healthier than ever before. Instead, they are used to justify old paradigms of treating disease. Because of this, my allegiance lies with Alchemy, as it considers the divine qualities of life and the elements that have always existed on this planet and beyond. I am also an Astrologer, who began as an Astronomer and then had a spiritual awakening atop a Mayan Pyramid in 1986. I often feel as if i'm still standing on top of that pyramid, looking out at the entire world and across the fabric of time.
To break it down more simply, what you put into your body is what you will get out of it. Put in life, and you will live. Put in death, and you will die. Of course, we will all die someday, but once you start transforming your world into one of light and life, you begin to notice that most people on earth are in the process of dying, right before your eyes. The good news is that we have a choice; to become one of the living, or one of the walking dead.
m7 -
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Re: just wondering
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 4:08 PMI have a very high vegan protein intake. I need it because I lift weights, mountain bike, do martial arts, and am sexually active, all things which tax the protein supply. I need about double the recommended values.
I am not 100% raw, but getting 100 grams or more protein per day is easy on a vegan diet. Its not impossible on a vegan diet though...One drawback is that raw soy can be unhealthy unless its heavily cured or fermented. Its ok occasionally, but you may eventually have health problems if you over consume soy in its raw form every day. If you are a pure raw foodist, you may want to cut back on the soy products as there are toxins that can only be reduced by cooking or fermenting, and it may lead to nutrient deficiencies.
When I am on a 100% raw diet, I got most of my protein from sprouted nuts, sprouted grains, sprouted beans (like mung beans), and sprouts in general. I do not recomend trying to get the bulk of your protein from dry even raw nuts unless you sprout them first. Even soaking overnight can help. Also vegetables like Broccoli are rich in protein. Sprouted peanuts are excellent as are sprouted almonds.
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